1
00:00:04,630 --> 00:00:03,110
welcome back to building 220 johnson

2
00:00:06,309 --> 00:00:04,640
space center where we are standing here

3
00:00:08,710 --> 00:00:06,319
in front of the deep space habitat where

4
00:00:10,709 --> 00:00:08,720
the autonomous mission operations test

5
00:00:13,030 --> 00:00:10,719
has been going on this week and we have

6
00:00:14,870 --> 00:00:13,040
um today's commander with us now alvin

7
00:00:17,109 --> 00:00:14,880
drew he's been working inside the deep

8
00:00:20,150 --> 00:00:17,119
space habitat working with some calm

9
00:00:21,830 --> 00:00:20,160
delay issues right yes so tell us how

10
00:00:24,070 --> 00:00:21,840
these tests are going for you they're

11
00:00:25,750 --> 00:00:24,080
going fine we've done two tests so far

12
00:00:27,589 --> 00:00:25,760
one with about a

13
00:00:29,269 --> 00:00:27,599
50-second con delay

14
00:00:31,349 --> 00:00:29,279
which puts about maybe 10 million miles

15
00:00:32,950 --> 00:00:31,359
away from earth this one puts us about

16
00:00:34,389 --> 00:00:32,960
out this one we have about a five minute

17
00:00:37,030 --> 00:00:34,399
convoy which puts us at maybe the

18
00:00:38,389 --> 00:00:37,040
closest point of mars and uh it becomes

19
00:00:39,670 --> 00:00:38,399
significantly harder to work with

20
00:00:41,510 --> 00:00:39,680
mission control

21
00:00:42,950 --> 00:00:41,520
especially when you're used to working

22
00:00:45,750 --> 00:00:42,960
in near real time with them with very

23
00:00:47,750 --> 00:00:45,760
minimal delay to tell them something and

24
00:00:49,510 --> 00:00:47,760
you have to wait 10 minutes for a reply

25
00:00:50,790 --> 00:00:49,520
back from them so how are you testing

26
00:00:53,270 --> 00:00:50,800
that out what kind of things are you

27
00:00:54,869 --> 00:00:53,280
doing with the convolution we're running

28
00:00:56,310 --> 00:00:54,879
just normal operations for a bit where

29
00:00:57,510 --> 00:00:56,320
you do your normal things and there's

30
00:00:58,630 --> 00:00:57,520
certain coordinations where they want

31
00:01:00,150 --> 00:00:58,640
data they want you to read something and

32
00:01:01,990 --> 00:01:00,160
give it back to them and there may be

33
00:01:03,430 --> 00:01:02,000
some some fine tuning they want to give

34
00:01:05,429 --> 00:01:03,440
you you know i really want you to look

35
00:01:07,750 --> 00:01:05,439
at this instead of that and so now you

36
00:01:09,030 --> 00:01:07,760
do a lot more just guessing

37
00:01:10,149 --> 00:01:09,040
okay they might have wanted these other

38
00:01:12,310 --> 00:01:10,159
three things so i'll give them all three

39
00:01:13,750 --> 00:01:12,320
of them rather than have them have this

40
00:01:15,670 --> 00:01:13,760
30 minute exchange while they get that

41
00:01:17,030 --> 00:01:15,680
one piece of information out

42
00:01:19,350 --> 00:01:17,040
where it gets tougher is when things

43
00:01:20,550 --> 00:01:19,360
don't go exactly as planned when pumps

44
00:01:21,830 --> 00:01:20,560
shut off when they're not supposed to

45
00:01:24,070 --> 00:01:21,840
light suddenly cut off when they're not

46
00:01:25,670 --> 00:01:24,080
supposed to and and you've got a set of

47
00:01:26,950 --> 00:01:25,680
procedures which gives you about 80

48
00:01:28,149 --> 00:01:26,960
percent of the way there but if it's

49
00:01:29,670 --> 00:01:28,159
more tricky than that it's more than

50
00:01:31,350 --> 00:01:29,680
like two failures acting against each

51
00:01:32,550 --> 00:01:31,360
other then you really need all the

52
00:01:34,069 --> 00:01:32,560
backgrounds and mission control to

53
00:01:35,990 --> 00:01:34,079
really look at these things tough uh

54
00:01:37,190 --> 00:01:36,000
quick and so they may have you

55
00:01:38,630 --> 00:01:37,200
helping them troubleshoot you know turn

56
00:01:39,830 --> 00:01:38,640
this off and see what happens turn this

57
00:01:41,190 --> 00:01:39,840
back on just like you would if you were

58
00:01:42,950 --> 00:01:41,200
working on any complex piece of

59
00:01:44,469 --> 00:01:42,960
equipment just go out and dupe it out

60
00:01:45,910 --> 00:01:44,479
and that's where it gets to be really

61
00:01:47,990 --> 00:01:45,920
long and drawn out because every one of

62
00:01:49,590 --> 00:01:48,000
those steps now waits at least 10

63
00:01:51,990 --> 00:01:49,600
minutes so you're hearing from mission

64
00:01:53,749 --> 00:01:52,000
control okay turn this off

65
00:01:55,510 --> 00:01:53,759
they say it you hear it five minutes

66
00:01:56,789 --> 00:01:55,520
later you turn it off and let them know

67
00:01:58,389 --> 00:01:56,799
that you turn it off and then it's

68
00:01:59,990 --> 00:01:58,399
another five minutes so ten minutes for

69
00:02:01,270 --> 00:02:00,000
them for them to hear that you've turned

70
00:02:03,350 --> 00:02:01,280
it off right and then be able to tell

71
00:02:05,670 --> 00:02:03,360
you if yes and then be able to tell you

72
00:02:06,950 --> 00:02:05,680
okay that fixed it or more likely no

73
00:02:08,469 --> 00:02:06,960
that didn't fix so now i'm gonna turn

74
00:02:11,830 --> 00:02:08,479
off this and it's the whole thing again

75
00:02:13,350 --> 00:02:11,840
yeah right okay so what happens is you

76
00:02:15,350 --> 00:02:13,360
like me your attention span just isn't

77
00:02:16,710 --> 00:02:15,360
that long so i've wandered off to

78
00:02:18,790 --> 00:02:16,720
something else and they'll call up and

79
00:02:20,390 --> 00:02:18,800
goes well that didn't fix it

80
00:02:21,830 --> 00:02:20,400
didn't fix what

81
00:02:22,710 --> 00:02:21,840
i'm already after reading the comic book

82
00:02:24,150 --> 00:02:22,720
so

83
00:02:27,030 --> 00:02:24,160
refresh me on what you're talking about

84
00:02:28,470 --> 00:02:27,040
yes what's been the hardest thing so far

85
00:02:30,229 --> 00:02:28,480
that has been the hardest part is that

86
00:02:31,910 --> 00:02:30,239
it's that sometimes we're having

87
00:02:33,350 --> 00:02:31,920
different conversations i'll be talking

88
00:02:35,030 --> 00:02:33,360
to them about something that's

89
00:02:36,869 --> 00:02:35,040
that i'm working on right now and i'm

90
00:02:38,790 --> 00:02:36,879
getting your transmission back from them

91
00:02:40,869 --> 00:02:38,800
something that happened 10 minutes ago

92
00:02:41,910 --> 00:02:40,879
and so like we it's easy to step on top

93
00:02:43,589 --> 00:02:41,920
of each other on the radio

94
00:02:45,750 --> 00:02:43,599
communications because you're you don't

95
00:02:46,949 --> 00:02:45,760
have that real-time feedback and so

96
00:02:48,229 --> 00:02:46,959
you'll stop your communication and of

97
00:02:49,350 --> 00:02:48,239
course there on the ground wondering why

98
00:02:50,790 --> 00:02:49,360
you stopped talking to them in

99
00:02:52,550 --> 00:02:50,800
mid-sentence

100
00:02:54,949 --> 00:02:52,560
so those kind of things go on that's

101
00:02:56,550 --> 00:02:54,959
about the toughest part yeah well

102
00:02:58,550 --> 00:02:56,560
you've been in space a couple of shuttle

103
00:03:00,149 --> 00:02:58,560
missions under your belt right so how do

104
00:03:02,229 --> 00:03:00,159
you how does it compare how does how do

105
00:03:04,390 --> 00:03:02,239
you i guess see that it would change

106
00:03:07,110 --> 00:03:04,400
things if you had to deal with that on a

107
00:03:10,309 --> 00:03:07,120
space shuttle mission

108
00:03:12,949 --> 00:03:10,319
it's something as complex as the the

109
00:03:14,550 --> 00:03:12,959
space station build up

110
00:03:17,030 --> 00:03:14,560
you almost had cameras right over your

111
00:03:19,030 --> 00:03:17,040
shoulder you were scrolls right there in

112
00:03:19,990 --> 00:03:19,040
in the modules with you you're talking

113
00:03:21,190 --> 00:03:20,000
with them because there's a lot of

114
00:03:22,869 --> 00:03:21,200
things going on and you really want to

115
00:03:24,309 --> 00:03:22,879
make sure you get them all right uh

116
00:03:25,910 --> 00:03:24,319
somewhere in here with these time blades

117
00:03:27,110 --> 00:03:25,920
you have to have that that zen moment

118
00:03:28,470 --> 00:03:27,120
where you just go

119
00:03:30,070 --> 00:03:28,480
they can't talk to me real time they

120
00:03:32,390 --> 00:03:30,080
have to just go and press ahead with

121
00:03:33,910 --> 00:03:32,400
this and hope it's the right thing and

122
00:03:35,030 --> 00:03:33,920
if it's not too critical or something

123
00:03:36,309 --> 00:03:35,040
that that 10 minutes now they can go

124
00:03:38,470 --> 00:03:36,319
back and correct

125
00:03:39,830 --> 00:03:38,480
but you have to just suddenly just say

126
00:03:41,110 --> 00:03:39,840
mission control has kind of a bigger

127
00:03:42,470 --> 00:03:41,120
picture function okay that we're all

128
00:03:44,710 --> 00:03:42,480
kind of heading down the right path

129
00:03:45,990 --> 00:03:44,720
they're not into the very the the nuts

130
00:03:47,750 --> 00:03:46,000
and bolts the ones and zeros of your

131
00:03:49,509 --> 00:03:47,760
daily operation this can't be because

132
00:03:51,270 --> 00:03:49,519
they're always several minutes behind

133
00:03:52,710 --> 00:03:51,280
you right well you think you know you

134
00:03:53,830 --> 00:03:52,720
wait a few minutes to hear the answer

135
00:03:55,910 --> 00:03:53,840
that doesn't sound like that big deal

136
00:03:57,110 --> 00:03:55,920
but that changes the mission doesn't it

137
00:03:58,869 --> 00:03:57,120
it can if you're going to wait five

138
00:04:00,070 --> 00:03:58,879
minutes for every single answer i just

139
00:04:01,270 --> 00:04:00,080
know i've just got a stack of things

140
00:04:02,470 --> 00:04:01,280
we're going to go do and i'm telling

141
00:04:03,750 --> 00:04:02,480
them i'm doing this now i'm doing that

142
00:04:04,630 --> 00:04:03,760
now doing that now doing that and if you

143
00:04:06,229 --> 00:04:04,640
have a problem with it you know 10

144
00:04:08,229 --> 00:04:06,239
minutes on here okay i wish you you know

145
00:04:10,149 --> 00:04:08,239
put the switch back to a instead of b

146
00:04:11,270 --> 00:04:10,159
but i'm not going to wait for them

147
00:04:12,710 --> 00:04:11,280
unless there's something extremely

148
00:04:13,990 --> 00:04:12,720
critical

149
00:04:15,750 --> 00:04:14,000
for them to come back with an answer

150
00:04:17,270 --> 00:04:15,760
saying yeah it's okay or that's not okay

151
00:04:19,189 --> 00:04:17,280
so it means i've got to have a certain

152
00:04:21,349 --> 00:04:19,199
level more insight into what i'm doing i

153
00:04:23,189 --> 00:04:21,359
just can't blindly throw switches uh

154
00:04:24,310 --> 00:04:23,199
because i just need to know that this

155
00:04:25,830 --> 00:04:24,320
isn't going to hurt something or i have

156
00:04:27,430 --> 00:04:25,840
a better set of confidence because if

157
00:04:29,749 --> 00:04:27,440
i'm waiting again again everything slows

158
00:04:31,510 --> 00:04:29,759
down dramatic dramatically yes well i

159
00:04:32,950 --> 00:04:31,520
guess i mean us kind of getting a good

160
00:04:34,629 --> 00:04:32,960
feel for this is pretty critical to

161
00:04:36,710 --> 00:04:34,639
being able to explore further out in the

162
00:04:38,230 --> 00:04:36,720
future would you say that's true yes now

163
00:04:39,430 --> 00:04:38,240
part of the thing is that the crews are

164
00:04:40,550 --> 00:04:39,440
never going to be as smart as mission

165
00:04:42,469 --> 00:04:40,560
control you know as much as i like to

166
00:04:43,670 --> 00:04:42,479
think i'm the smartest flight controller

167
00:04:45,350 --> 00:04:43,680
i'm not as smart as anyone flight

168
00:04:46,629 --> 00:04:45,360
controller i'm certainly not as smart as

169
00:04:48,469 --> 00:04:46,639
five or six flight controllers and they

170
00:04:49,270 --> 00:04:48,479
outnumber us

171
00:04:50,390 --> 00:04:49,280
you know

172
00:04:52,230 --> 00:04:50,400
they are smarter than this but they

173
00:04:54,230 --> 00:04:52,240
outnumber us as well so we're outclassed

174
00:04:55,350 --> 00:04:54,240
and outnumbered to begin with and so how

175
00:04:57,030 --> 00:04:55,360
do you

176
00:04:58,230 --> 00:04:57,040
reproduce that in really in critical

177
00:04:59,430 --> 00:04:58,240
situations so we haven't done anything

178
00:05:01,430 --> 00:04:59,440
that's really critical yet nothing's

179
00:05:03,350 --> 00:05:01,440
caught firing here with us that kid's

180
00:05:04,070 --> 00:05:03,360
going to in the next run

181
00:05:05,510 --> 00:05:04,080
so

182
00:05:06,870 --> 00:05:05,520
how do you what do you do is can you

183
00:05:09,189 --> 00:05:06,880
have a virtual mission control can use

184
00:05:10,870 --> 00:05:09,199
artificial intelligence can you capture

185
00:05:12,870 --> 00:05:10,880
mission control's philosophy their

186
00:05:14,629 --> 00:05:12,880
culture their flight rules all the

187
00:05:16,870 --> 00:05:14,639
things that a flight director would

188
00:05:17,830 --> 00:05:16,880
decide given all that information that

189
00:05:19,749 --> 00:05:17,840
they're getting from their flight

190
00:05:21,270 --> 00:05:19,759
controllers and their flight rules and

191
00:05:22,390 --> 00:05:21,280
that's what i think the goal of this

192
00:05:24,870 --> 00:05:22,400
particular

193
00:05:25,749 --> 00:05:24,880
exercise is is can we capture that i

194
00:05:27,990 --> 00:05:25,759
mean

195
00:05:29,670 --> 00:05:28,000
autonomous mission operations amo is

196
00:05:30,710 --> 00:05:29,680
trying to do just that and i don't think

197
00:05:32,070 --> 00:05:30,720
we have any ambition that we're going to

198
00:05:33,830 --> 00:05:32,080
get there on the first try or even the

199
00:05:35,189 --> 00:05:33,840
second try but you have to start

200
00:05:37,029 --> 00:05:35,199
somewhere you have to grow this thing

201
00:05:39,430 --> 00:05:37,039
and have mission controllers work with

202
00:05:40,870 --> 00:05:39,440
it make it smarter let it learn and then

203
00:05:43,110 --> 00:05:40,880
it may be something that we all have

204
00:05:45,909 --> 00:05:43,120
confidence in so when we are

205
00:05:47,749 --> 00:05:45,919
5 10 15 light minutes away from earth

206
00:05:50,310 --> 00:05:47,759
and this thing says i'm going to shut

207
00:05:51,590 --> 00:05:50,320
down your backup hydraulic system you go

208
00:05:52,870 --> 00:05:51,600
okay there's probably a good reason for

209
00:05:55,110 --> 00:05:52,880
that because it just wouldn't do that on

210
00:05:56,309 --> 00:05:55,120
its own unless it's playing how uh-huh

211
00:05:58,550 --> 00:05:56,319
well do you feel like you're learning

212
00:06:00,469 --> 00:05:58,560
things and and getting stuff out of this

213
00:06:02,150 --> 00:06:00,479
yes quite a bit it's it's good to work

214
00:06:03,909 --> 00:06:02,160
in terms of deep space i'm used to being

215
00:06:05,830 --> 00:06:03,919
in low-earth orbit and i'm in places

216
00:06:07,029 --> 00:06:05,840
that are not lower anymore and just

217
00:06:08,629 --> 00:06:07,039
thinking very differently it's a very

218
00:06:09,909 --> 00:06:08,639
different mindset to think that you're

219
00:06:11,749 --> 00:06:09,919
just not going to look out the out of

220
00:06:14,150 --> 00:06:11,759
the window and see big blue beach ball

221
00:06:15,590 --> 00:06:14,160
earth right beneath you it just may be

222
00:06:17,029 --> 00:06:15,600
a blue and gold dot out there that's the

223
00:06:19,189 --> 00:06:17,039
earth moon system and trying to pick

224
00:06:20,469 --> 00:06:19,199
that out so it's it's a it makes you

225
00:06:21,749 --> 00:06:20,479
think about that that this is very

226
00:06:23,510 --> 00:06:21,759
different than what we've been doing for

227
00:06:25,189 --> 00:06:23,520
about the last

228
00:06:27,029 --> 00:06:25,199
30 35 years

229
00:06:28,550 --> 00:06:27,039
well i know you've lived in the deep

230
00:06:29,909 --> 00:06:28,560
space habitat a little bit before for

231
00:06:32,150 --> 00:06:29,919
some of the other analog missions right

232
00:06:33,510 --> 00:06:32,160
yes this and the uh the suv the uh the

233
00:06:35,749 --> 00:06:33,520
rovers okay

234
00:06:37,270 --> 00:06:35,759
how you know are we how does it feel to

235
00:06:39,510 --> 00:06:37,280
be part of all this stuff that's going

236
00:06:40,870 --> 00:06:39,520
on to get us ready to go out it's very

237
00:06:42,469 --> 00:06:40,880
cool it feels like i'm living in the

238
00:06:44,469 --> 00:06:42,479
middle of a science fiction novel some

239
00:06:46,870 --> 00:06:44,479
days the the conversations i have at my

240
00:06:48,629 --> 00:06:46,880
desk are sometimes very surreal

241
00:06:50,390 --> 00:06:48,639
oh let's talk about you know logistics

242
00:06:51,670 --> 00:06:50,400
concepts for we're going out on the far

243
00:06:53,670 --> 00:06:51,680
side of the moon like

244
00:06:55,430 --> 00:06:53,680
okay this is today you know we're we're

245
00:06:57,510 --> 00:06:55,440
at most about 400 miles above the earth

246
00:06:59,430 --> 00:06:57,520
and we're talking about going 400 000

247
00:07:01,110 --> 00:06:59,440
miles away from the earth as if there's

248
00:07:02,870 --> 00:07:01,120
something going on right now and we're

249
00:07:04,469 --> 00:07:02,880
having a heated debates about you know

250
00:07:06,390 --> 00:07:04,479
how many ships come up per month and how

251
00:07:08,550 --> 00:07:06,400
many tons we need to bring back and how

252
00:07:10,070 --> 00:07:08,560
much electricity you need uh you know

253
00:07:11,270 --> 00:07:10,080
we're in those gory details if there's

254
00:07:12,629 --> 00:07:11,280
something happening right now like okay

255
00:07:13,830 --> 00:07:12,639
this is not happening right now we're

256
00:07:16,230 --> 00:07:13,840
planning it we're going to get there but

257
00:07:17,350 --> 00:07:16,240
it's just a step back a few times ago

258
00:07:19,589 --> 00:07:17,360
it's kind of disappointing to walk out

259
00:07:21,270 --> 00:07:19,599
of the office and back into reality

260
00:07:22,550 --> 00:07:21,280
but it's a nice office to come to right

261
00:07:23,909 --> 00:07:22,560
yes it is all right well thanks so much